The Woolworths School of Political Dramaturgy
Edited by archosIDF Aug 14, 2009 10:58 pm
Letter to Jimbo Wales, Chairman Emeticus
Dear Woolworths Foundation Board of Trustees,As you requested, here are the faculty recommendations regarding the qualifications of the Umbridge Twins (Mike and SB_Dolores) to assume the duties of Headmaster here at Woolworths School of Political Dramaturgy.
We were especially impressed by the recent production in which the impressionable young students of Woolworths School of Political Dramaturgy were inducted into the long-forgotten practice of employing Parliamentary Bill of Attainder. The symbolic allusions to the Trial Scene from Alice in Wonderland was an especially brilliant maneuver.
We are confident that, with the Umbridge Twins in charge, our students will quickly learn all the well-known hoary practices from the rubbish heap of political history dating back to the Forgotten Realms of Hammurabi.
And, at the end of the term, all the students are cordially invited to Go Jump In the Lake.
(signed)
Humble Members of Your Obedient Faculty Senate
Ottava Rima, Chairman of the Committee on Crime and Punishment
Darklama, Recoding Secretary
Sxeptomaniac, Sargeant at Harms
KillerChihuahua, Redactor of Records
- Jan 31, 2009 12:07 am (#1 of 1043)
I see potential, I see a huge potential.
Political dramaturgy, now that is a subject for my taste.
Obelix - Jan 31, 2009 12:27 am (#2 of 1043)
Political Dramaturgidity is the best you can reasonably hope for.
- Jan 31, 2009 12:37 am (#3 of 1043)
So Moulton is still nursing the Wikipedia expulsion thing.
Another mournful soliloquy.
I think if Moulton really wants to move on from that particular debacle, if he wants to heal and grow and create space for the eureka moment he is looking for, there is only one thing he can do.
He can apologize to the folks at WIki.
Obelix - Jan 31, 2009 12:42 am (#4 of 1043)
As a Trojan Horse for getting back in I doubt it would ever work.
- Jan 31, 2009 12:44 am (#5 of 1043)
I suggested this thread because you, Bela successfully made yourself the center of attention of the Hosting Issues thread, you have fulfilled your mission and have become the main hosting issue of the International Digest Forum.
Aren't you proud of yourself?!
So I read Moulton's great rant introducing his concept of the Woolworths School of Political Dramaturgy and thought to myself: I need another approach.
We'll have to build a stage for Bela, so he can make himself the center of it.
- Jan 31, 2009 1:17 am (#6 of 1043)
As a Trojan Horse for getting back in I doubt it would ever work.
Certainly, they would suspect that it was somebody playing a prank under the guise of one of Moulton's pseuds.
- Jan 31, 2009 1:26 am (#7 of 1043)
I suggested this thread because you, Bela successfully made yourself the center of attention of the Hosting Issues thread, you have fulfilled your mission and have become the main hosting issue of the International Digest Forum. Aren't you proud of yourself?!
That's our agreement, Archos: you provide this forum as a service to me.
But if you want to make this thread 'safe', by all means, I will oblige.
- Jan 31, 2009 1:36 am (#8 of 1043)
If it's just me and Moulton (and perhaps Higs; on the sidelines) I very much doubt that we will get any big drama going.
We need you and/or klaatu!
How about reposting how klaatu deleted dozens of posts in his WHO STARTS WARS thread two years ago?
We wouldn't want to forget that, would we?
Tabula rasa my ass.
gotham - Jan 31, 2009 2:10 am (#9 of 1043)
We need you and/or klaatu!
Not in a filthy way I hope...
- Jan 31, 2009 2:57 am (#10 of 1043)
no, just in the worst way.
- Jan 31, 2009 5:56 am (#11 of 1043)
We'll have to build a stage for Bela, so he can make himself the center of it.
We already did that, Archos? Have you forgotten?
- Jan 31, 2009 6:39 am (#12 of 1043)
Will this be for argument or abuse?
- Jan 31, 2009 7:03 am (#13 of 1043)
Will this be for argument or abuse?
That raises a good question, Higs.
Was the political satire of Jonathan Swift abusive?
What about the Dostoevsky's sendup of a dysfunctional political system in Crime and Punishment and The Brothers Karamazov?
What role do satire, parody, and sarcasm play in political dialogue?
- Jan 31, 2009 7:53 am (#14 of 1043)
What role do satire, parody, and sarcasm play in political dialogue?
One that depends largely on the intellectual capaciousness of the interlocutors.
Swift’s own bishop, shortly after the pseudonymous publication of Gulliver’s Travels, told Swift confidentially, “I’ve been reading this Gulliver’s book everyone’s talking about—why, I don’t believe a word of it!”
One can only imagine the countenance the dutiful priest offered his superior in response.
But there’s abuse and then there’s abuse. When Swift takes that slap at America early on in the text of his “A Modest Proposal” (implying that in America they already do what he’s getting ready to propose—and that this can, therefore, only lend the power of ethos to his argument) it’s an abusive slur against an entire people. But it isn’t tantamount to the genuine socio-economic abuse in his society that he was attacking. And in either case, the abuse is metaphorical or at least abstract. Swift's abuse, I mean.
Playground name-calling spats don’t necessarily rise to the level of “political dialogue,” either, except in the broadest of terms—in the sense of the power politics of experience.
Those of us who cut at least some of our intellectual teeth on notions of comedy like that of Monty Python and The Firesign Theatre clearly have an altered sense of the validity of the ironic, the hyperbolic, and the flat-out abusive.
There’s even a certain Zen angle to it—the moment at which the master just leans into the face of the woman sputtering in her myopic cocoon and screams “Shut up!”
Enlightenment sometimes is a two-by-four upside the head, and all that.
- Jan 31, 2009 8:06 am (#15 of 1043)
In any event, it is undeniable that political satire is staple feature of our culture, including both Pulitzer-prize winning literature and low-grade low-brow comedy in the style of Monty Python, Borat, The Simpsons, South Park, Jon Stewart, Stephen Colbert, the Capitol Steps, and Saturday Night Live.
- Jan 31, 2009 8:09 am (#16 of 1043)
low-grade
I prefer the term low-brow, myself.
- Jan 31, 2009 8:50 am (#17 of 1043)
Low-Brow Satire
You mean like this?Curbolo Firus - Aug 11, 2005 2:46 am
Master of Misapprehension
Moulton, "Science and Religion" #829, 5 Aug 2005 4:55 amI understand that Dubya is teaming up with Curbolo Firus, MMA, to publish a seminal new book on Mimetic Nihilism.
The book is out, but I didn't ghost write it forDubya.
So far I've only seen one review of it, and it wasn't all that flattering...Mimetic Nihilism is about the cancerous spread of nihilistic practices in our culture. These practices were recently dramatized in a long-running soap opera, "Bildungsroman in the Age of Character Assassination."The book presents a withering criticism of the practice of Mimetic Nihilism, and concludes with a scathing criticism of itself: "This book not only makes a mockery of Mimetic Nihilism, it stands as a nefarious and unconscionable model of the very cancer which it passionately urges us to eradicate."
- Jan 31, 2009 9:41 am (#18 of 1043)
Francine Prose calls Harper Lee's To Kill A Mockingbird an example of low-brow literature.
Nothing will enrage a group of readers more than such a statement.
Unless maybe it's a discussion opener like, "Anyone who says he isn't a racist is either a fool or a liar."
There's always a way to get a crowd riled up; it's just a question of what most directly affronts their center of consensual gravity.
Did Abbie Hoffman's book Steal This Book sell very well?
- Jan 31, 2009 9:41 am (#19 of 1043)
Aha. Curbolo Firus is one of Moulton's nicknames for moi.
----------------------
Well, Moulton, if you want to play, this sandbox is as good as any.
So, in the spirit of community dialogue, I followed Moulton's link to the Wiki page. And what was one click away?
------------------
http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Wikiversity:Community_Review/Status_of_Moulton#Background
Wikiversity:Community Review/Status of Moulton
[Moulton's real name redacted by Bela] (User:Moulton) was indefblocked from Wikipedia, and felt that the block was an abuse of power on the part of the blocking admin(s)...
In addition to his work on Wikiversity, he also created a number of blog pages and engaged in email correspondence with a number of Wikipedians, including members of the Arbitration Committee and Jimbo Wales.
Some of his postings -- both here on Wikiversity and on his blogs -- included naming Wikipedia contributors who wanted to remain pseudonymous, and posting private correspondence. He was told repeatedly and by a number of users to refrain from doing that on Wikiversity, and at one point I (SB_Johnny) blocked him for 2 hours since he did this several times in a short period (this was the only time he was blocked by a local Custodian).
Eventually, Jimbo Wales decided that this was unacceptable, and indefblocked him here, with the consent of a number of Wikiversity custodians (including me).
[Moulton's real name redacted by Bela] then continued to post names on his talk page, and we received complaints from members of the Wikipedian community (see here). I (SB_Johnny) offered to remove the block if he agreed to stop using these names and posting private correspondence, but he refused.
- Jan 31, 2009 9:41 am (#20 of 1043)
There you have it. Moulton is a low-grade intellectual thug, who will resort to blackmail and intimidation in order to try to get his way when his 'intellectual' arguments fail.
Which they always do.
Nope, while lecturing us all out of one side of his mouth on 'community practices' and 'forum social contracts' and 'Bohmian dialogue', he is violating the most basic forum social contract out of the other side of his mouth.
- Jan 31, 2009 9:44 am (#21 of 1043)
Aha. Curbolo Firus is one of Moulton's nicknames for moi.
Who cares?
- Jan 31, 2009 9:51 am (#22 of 1043)
But is this new behavior on Moulton's part?
A one-off?
In a word: no.
Why, look at what happened almost exactly six years ago:
---------------------------------
Moulton's blackmail attempts as commented on at Mind & Spirit:
merrlynn 2/5/03 7:11pm [Moulton's real name redacted by Bela] ... That IS blackmail. Your motives are pure and simple.
-jenniferb- 2/6/03 3:13pm [Moulton's real name redacted by Bela] ... when you take the dialogue out of the designated thread and escalate to harassment, threats, and blackmail, you are going too far.... There is a reason they are called "community standards," [Moulton's real name redacted by Bela] : they are established by the community, and while I've never felt the need to document them ... I believe everyone here understands what they are....Consider yourself warned.
merrlynn 2/6/03 4:26pm I wonder if this is the promise he means. This is the statement I referred to as blackmail.
merrlynn 2/7/03 4:54am Bela shouldn't have to give you anything in return for your not doing an indecent act, [Moulton's real name redacted by Bela]. Where is your sense of ethics? You're treating Bela exactly the way you hate to have others treat you.
Richard Arthur 2/5/03 5:12pm I don't think it was so much Bela's claim as your plain evasiveness when he asked you to deny it.... But what's the harm in a simple statement, "I haven't approached Bela's employer, and I have no intention to approach Bela's employer, and I won't approach Bela's employer"? ... [Moulton's real name redacted by Bela], your work and statements evidence a committment to high ideals. Surely this is a situation where plain ethics call for a simple, unclever, unambiguous affirmance or denial. If you are not doing what Bela apparently believes you are doing, why not deny it? And, if you are attempting to make some contact outside of cyberspace, why not 'fess up to it, if it's not an ignoble act?
Artemis 2/5/03 5:28pm Well and succinctly put, Richard. [Moulton's real name redacted by Bela] ?
Artemis 2/5/03 5:40pm Yes. But you didn't answer it
merrlynn 2/6/03 3:34am ..when you keep attacking people you lose sympathizers, [Moulton's real name redacted by Bela] ... You're alienating the very people who were once your friends. I don't enjoy discussions with you any more. But we had some good ones. If you quit attacking and want to get back to discussing we can have some more.
Tim Lukeman 2/6/03 6:06am [Moulton's real name redacted by Bela], I really don't see why a straight, direct, to the point answer is such a problem... I'm starting to dislike visiting this place & it used to give me so much delight.
Kerry Lockett 2/8/03 10:54am Whatever, [Moulton's real name redacted by Bela] . Then you go on and re-describe all this horrendous stuff. Thanks for being as obtuse as you possibly can and persisting in this Who gives a shit interactions..I'm taking a well deserved break from this bullshit.
- Jan 31, 2009 9:54 am (#23 of 1043)
Who cares?
Higs, please do visit Moulton's Playspace.
Just know that he has a number of IP-recording traps (he calls them 'beacons') at his forum (as well as in his posts here), and he will be tracking you and trying to figure out where you live and work.
Then, if you run afoul of him in any way, he will be ready for you.
Claude Dorsel - Jan 31, 2009 10:13 am (#24 of 1043)
You were right to give this warning, Bela. As long as new people are aware of this, it loses its potentialities for mischief. But let's not have this discussion again.
More topically, how do you guys define "dramaturgy" ? I have seen it used occasionnally, but am not sure of what is generally meant. It does not seem to be used in French, and I always assumed it was a Germanism.
- Jan 31, 2009 10:37 am (#25 of 1043)
That would be Sturm und Dramaturgy.
My dictionary defines it as:
the theory and practice of dramatic composition
- Jan 31, 2009 10:51 am (#26 of 1043)
I am always wary of the salesman who doesn't use the product himself.
Eh, Moulton?
- Jan 31, 2009 10:51 am (#27 of 1043)
If your 'product' worked... why don't you use it?
Obelix - Jan 31, 2009 11:54 am (#28 of 1043)
Moulton has nothing anyone would want to buy.
klaatu - Jan 31, 2009 12:02 pm (#29 of 1043)
You and Bela certainly don't.
Obelix - Jan 31, 2009 12:05 pm (#30 of 1043)
Whenever I mock you I bet it sells like hot cakes. One never knows for sure, of course.
Claude Dorsel - Jan 31, 2009 12:20 pm (#31 of 1043)
the theory and practice of dramatic composition
I would have say it is something you have or do not have, a knack. I don't think the masters of dramatic composition first had to attend Dramaturgy 101.
- Jan 31, 2009 12:27 pm (#32 of 1043)
Bela - Jan 31, 2009 8:41 am (#19 of 29)
Holy crap!...all that shit on wiki because of Moulton? WTF is his problem?
So aside from here, wiki has to deal with all the BS too?
DAMN, some people really, REALLY need to get a life.
(What did moulton do before the internet came along, write harassing letters to everyone?) 
Obelix - Jan 31, 2009 1:05 pm (#33 of 1043)
Klaatu feels he has to defend Moulton - he's a fellow-enemy of Bela - as is Bill - Klaatu's only other ally.
(Kitty used to be another, but she got banned)
Claude Dorsel - Jan 31, 2009 1:20 pm (#34 of 1043)
Yes, but all that has become a very boring dramaturgy.
I was reminded by all that talk about the romantics that they were also famous for challenging the previously iron rule of the "three unities":
UNITIES, THREE (also known as the "three dramatic unities"): In the 1500s and 1600s, critics of drama expanded Aristotle's ideas in the Poetics to create the rule of the "three unities." A good play, according to this doctrine, must have three traits. The first is unity of action (realistic events following a single plotline and a limited number of characters encompassed by a sense of verisimilitude). The second is unity of time, meaning that the events should be limited to the two or three hours it takes to view the play, or at most to a single day of twelve or twenty-four hours compressed into those two or three hours. Skipping ahead in time over the course of several days or years was considered undesirable, because the audience was thought to be incapable of suspending disbelief regarding the passage of time. The third is unity of space, meaning the play must take place in a single setting or location. It is notable that Shakespeare often broke the three unities in his plays, which may explain why these rules later were never as dominant in England as they were in French and Italian Neoclassical drama. French playwrights like Moliére conformed to the model much more strictly in Love is the Doctor and Tartuffe.
http://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/lit_terms_U.html
Obelix - Jan 31, 2009 1:26 pm (#35 of 1043)
Jeez, I wish modern movie-makers would observe the 3 unities. All those flashbacks in The English Patient and others mix me up no end.
Claude Dorsel - Jan 31, 2009 1:30 pm (#36 of 1043)
It is the kind of movie you have to watch twice to really get. But I liked it, nevertheless.
- Jan 31, 2009 1:55 pm (#37 of 1043)
Whenever I mock you I bet it sells like hot cakes. One never knows for sure, of course.
Hard to know if the silent majority is rolling their eyes or nodding along.
- Jan 31, 2009 1:56 pm (#38 of 1043)
Heya Tara!
Hope you are well.
Yeah, Moulton probably wrote a lot of letters--and, as he used to tell us, get in pissing matches with his bosses.
- Jan 31, 2009 1:57 pm (#39 of 1043)
I would have say it is something you have or do not have, a knack. I don't think the masters of dramatic composition first had to attend Dramaturgy 101.
Yes, Claude, people study what the doers do.
Beethoven studied composition formally, but I doubt the Beatles did. They just played what sounded good to them.
And now scholars study them.
- Jan 31, 2009 2:04 pm (#40 of 1043)
Interesting, Claude.
The first is unity of action (realistic events following a single plotline and a limited number of characters encompassed by a sense of verisimilitude). The second is unity of time, meaning that the events should be limited to the two or three hours it takes to view the play... The third is unity of space, meaning the play must take place in a single setting or location.
Yeah, wouldn't have gone over well with the invention of cinema.
Speaking of which, Slumdog Millionaire is not only a great flick, but the structure (flashbacks etc) is pretty remarkable.
The flashbacks are referenced by the 'present time' story, which changes in time itself (towards the end).
klaatu - Jan 31, 2009 2:29 pm (#41 of 1043)
What scholars?
Bill Russell
- Jan 31, 2009 2:43 pm (#42 of 1043)
"We'll have to build a stage for Bela, so he can make himself the center of it."
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
- Jan 31, 2009 3:32 pm (#43 of 1043)
Aristotle's obsessive mania for noting characteristics is descriptive, not prescriptive.
Let's not forget that.
Unless we forget him.
Which is fine with me.
- Jan 31, 2009 3:52 pm (#44 of 1043)
The only thing I can see that’s first and foremost worth talking about, here, is the extent to which I was being serious when I objected to a certain scrap of Moulton’s language and he stipulated to the change rather than waste time by trying to figure out what the hell I was up to.
I wasn’t lying—I really do prefer the term low-brow to the term low-grade, but that’s as may be, when it comes to whether or not I agreed with what Moulton was saying. I did in fact agree with him. But I wasn’t just trying to be contrary or evasive or asserting my own deflective stamp on the flow.
To me, low-grade is an effective term when talking about a headache or viral infection.
But I really didn’t think he ought to have amended the document we are constructing. Then again, what did I think?
Did I think anything?
Fact is—I expect a bloody lot from those to whom I speak in a forum like this. I expect nothing less than everything, as Eliot says in a quiet chapel in England. I want folks to follow me. I want then to know what I’m sayin’.
Heh Ha - Jan 31, 2009 3:58 pm (#45 of 1043)
I used to like going to Woolworths, but then they closed it. I remember that the floors were squeaky, but I loved the soda fountain. My mother went for the fabric.
Name your favorite soda fountain thing you liked to eat. For me I liked the french fries and cheeseburgers because they used good pickles. Also liked the orange drink that came out of the bubbling tank. I used to like the stools because you could spin on the them, but that made my mother mad when I did that.
- Jan 31, 2009 4:01 pm (#46 of 1043)
Name your favorite soda fountain thing you liked to eat.
You go in, sit down, order a Green River.
And then you don't drink it.
This is the true sublime.
Heh Ha - Jan 31, 2009 4:04 pm (#47 of 1043)
I just remembered they made good pies with icecream. I could use a Woolworth's pie about now, but they're switching of and on the lights so we'll see you when I return my DVD.
- Jan 31, 2009 4:20 pm (#48 of 1043)
Ciao.
Bill Russell
- Jan 31, 2009 4:51 pm (#49 of 1043)
Sayonara.
- Jan 31, 2009 5:05 pm (#50 of 1043)
Here's the funny thing...
Elsewhere, there is a game of Wizard Chess going on between a troll named Grawp and an Admin named Krimpet. Krimpet posted Grawp's real name, address, phone number, and his mother's name, and suggested others call him up or call the cops on him.
Grawp reciprocated and posted personal info on Krimpet.
The admins went crazy deleting the stuff that Grawp posted about Krimpet, but let the stuff she posted about him stand for six weeks on Wikipedia. It still stands on the public Wikipedia mailing list that anyone can read.
Finally, another Admin pointed out the double standard, whereupon Krimpet resigned her adminship, rather than face a possible hearing on the issue. But Krimpet otherwise remains a Wikipedia editor in good standing.
Meantime, SB_Johnny started that Status Review page, but initially used my real name rather than my Wiki avatar name. Now the ironic thing is that the main charge against me is that I address other scholars by their real name. And in that discussion, they call me by my real name, even as they use that as the pretext for Bill of Attainder.
When I pointed out to SB_Johnny the curious doubled standard, he had another Admin correct it. Except the other Admin only corrected two instances out of three where he had repeated that same gaffe.
Meantime, he is teaching impressionable youth to adopt anachronistic practices that the Founders abandoned over two centuries ago because it's a corrosive practice that (as history shows) sinks any regime foolish enough to adopt it.
- Jan 31, 2009 5:08 pm (#51 of 1043)
anachronistic practices
Sacrificing your queen too soon?
- Jan 31, 2009 5:10 pm (#52 of 1043)
I am not the world's best chess player, but I don't really need to win the chess match. Teachers don't succeed as educators by beating their students' brains out.
- Jan 31, 2009 5:11 pm (#53 of 1043)
That's not news to any good teachers.
(There are some, I suppose. . . .)
- Jan 31, 2009 5:14 pm (#54 of 1043)
The part that intrigues me is the question of whether characters like Pope Urban are educable by the likes of Galileo.
Becket had some trouble with King Henry, and Stephen Langton didn't succeed with King John, either.
Then again, Gandhi did get the British to leave India.
- Jan 31, 2009 5:15 pm (#55 of 1043)
Obama got elected.
Giordano Bruno got burned.
You win some an' you lose some.
Dat's de way she is.
"I am not the world's best chess player, but I don't really need to win the chess match."
What's the point of playing, then?
- Jan 31, 2009 6:05 pm (#57 of 1043)
Meantime, SB_Johnny started that Status Review page, but initially used my real name rather than my Wiki avatar name. Now the ironic thing is that the main charge against me is that I address other scholars by their real name.
I am wagering that Moulton's 'recount' is about 20% true... that is, some actual facts, but placed utterly out of context and mixed in with some outright falsifications.
Moulton frequently will create a conflict and then, when recounting it later, conveniently omit any mention of his hand in things. Suddenly he is portrayed as some sort of innocent, passive victim.
- Jan 31, 2009 6:08 pm (#58 of 1043)
Hedge, I prefer to win, but I find playing chess fun even if I lose (well, almost).
- Jan 31, 2009 6:11 pm (#59 of 1043)
I am not the world's best chess player, but I don't really need to win the chess match. Teachers don't succeed as educators by beating their students' brains out.
So, Moulton, tell us what you did beat.
Was it made of meat?
- Jan 31, 2009 6:30 pm (#60 of 1043)
What's the point of playing, then?
Education. For a long time I wondered why Socrates drank the hemlock.
After all, Aristotle left Athens rather than be treated to the same Bill of Attainder as Socrates.
But Socrates was a teacher, and if he had availed himself of the opportunities to slink away, his most important lesson would have been lost to history.
One wonders if Aristotle's legacy might have been enhanced if he, too, had decided to die for his cause.
Obelix - Jan 31, 2009 6:34 pm (#61 of 1043)
What did Moulton ever teach and to whom, is what I would like to know.
Bill Russell
- Jan 31, 2009 6:35 pm (#62 of 1043)
Have you asked Moulton?
- Jan 31, 2009 6:36 pm (#63 of 1043)
Obe, read this, for example.
- Jan 31, 2009 9:02 pm (#64 of 1043)
Much better that you teach by example.
Bill Russell
- Jan 31, 2009 9:55 pm (#65 of 1043)
Bela should try it.
- Jan 31, 2009 10:22 pm (#66 of 1043)
Hey, Bela: are you 60, yet? I was just wondring.
- Jan 31, 2009 10:38 pm (#67 of 1043)
No, long way from 60.
Bill Russell
- Jan 31, 2009 10:40 pm (#68 of 1043)
75 is a long way from 60.
- Jan 31, 2009 10:44 pm (#69 of 1043)
I kinda figered.
- Feb 1, 2009 4:15 am (#70 of 1043)
We already did that, Archos? Have you forgotten?
Gastrin Bombesin, "No One Expects the Spammish Inquisition!" #1, 25 May 2007 12:50 am
No I didn't forget it, Moulton. But that was very shortlived i.e. not very functional, not a permanent stage for Bela to get mirrored.
It died after sixteen posts.
And shortly afterwards you left the location, if I remember correctly.
- Feb 1, 2009 4:21 am (#71 of 1043)
Moulton, "The Woolworths School of Political Dramaturgy" #17, 31 Jan 2009 7:50 am
'Mimetic Nihilism is about the cancerous spread of nihilistic practices in our culture. These practices were recently dramatized in a long-running soap opera, "Bildungsroman in the Age of Character Assassination."'
I caught that phrase of yours "Bildungsroman in the Age of Character Assassination" around a month later, in 2005, and thought that anyone who is capable of inventing such a phrase is capable of anything and well worth at least to start a forum for.
And then I botched it. Within two months.
And it took me another two years, until 2007, that I seriously began to read some Rene Girard, from whom you gleaned the concept of mimetic rivalry.
But I was still full of resistance!
- Feb 1, 2009 4:25 am (#72 of 1043)
Compare Mimetic Enthrallment to Mimetic Nihilism.
Often, the former morphs into the latter.
- Feb 1, 2009 4:25 am (#73 of 1043)
Political Dramaturgy is the perfect follow-up course to our pedestrian Drama Theory, from which we never really graduated.
We left your open unsolved question hanging there in cyberspace.
Moulton, "Drama Theory" #1, 8 Feb 2006 7:24 pm
Moulton, "Drama Theory" #2966, 21 Nov 2008 3:32 pm
"One of the unsolved problems in Game Theory is how to induce a paradigm shift from Games of Competition to Games of Cooperation. "
But to not just have a new thread, but make a whole school out of it and name it Woolworths School of all names is another stroke of genius I must say, Moulton.
- Feb 1, 2009 4:34 am (#74 of 1043)
It turns out that political satire and parody fall into the domain of ethically acceptable methods of educational discourse.
Previously, Schadenfreude Theatre presented a pair of seemingly unrelated operas, one entitled Fear and Loathing in Lost Vagueness and one entitled No One Expects the Spammish Inquisition!. These were in addition to another Soap Opera entitled, Bildungsroman in the Age of Character Assassination, which featured Bela, Klaatu, Moulton, and a variety of walk-on cameos by various and sundry characters from the Original ATI/RI/PDR Soap Opera which Bela kicked off some five years ago.
The difficulty, of course, is becoming an artful parodist.
Note that the above opening scene didn't work out, after ArbCom (Wikipedia's legendary Arbitration Committee) unanimously voted to strip FeloniousMonk of his vaunted Adminship, on the grounds of egregious abuse of power and notoriously corrupt behavior which brought shameful disrepute to the project. Drama Theory
Montana Mouse - Jun 15, 2008 10:21 am (#2356 of 2369)
I never signed up to be an Internet movie star.
Now the third opera in the Ring of the Neener Bomb is getting underway at the English Wikipedia. This one is tentatively called The Final Absolution and promises to have considerably better music than that previously provided by Barsoom Tork Associates.
To kick things off, a Wikipedian who goes by the name of Filll has posed the following invitation:
How about you start with this, and then answer my 8 questions?
The reference to the starting point is a scathing Indictment of Moulton lodged by another prominent Wikipedian, an admin who goes by the name of FeloniousMonk.
- Feb 1, 2009 4:59 am (#75 of 1043)
You're in the tradition of Friedrich Schiller, who also felt, more than two hundred years ago, in the wake of the French revolution for democracy which went down in terror that the only solution to violent political conflict is PLAY, the education of humankind on the stage.
http://www.odysseetheater.com/schiller/schiller.htm 
- Feb 1, 2009 5:58 am (#76 of 1043)
Claude Dorsel, "The Woolworths School of Political Dramaturgy" #24, 31 Jan 2009 9:13 am
More topically, how do you guys define "dramaturgy" ? I have seen it used occasionnally, but am not sure of what is generally meant. It does not seem to be used in French, and I always assumed it was a Germanism.
I think you might be right. I was thinking of Lessing's (1729-1781) Hamburgische Dramaturgie and Britannica seems to confirm it:
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/171026/dramaturgy
"the art or technique of dramatic composition or theatrical representation. In this sense English dramaturgy and French dramaturgie are both borrowed from German Dramaturgie, a word used by the German dramatist and critic Gotthold Lessing in an influential series of essays entitled Hamburgische Dramaturgie (“The Hamburg Dramaturgy”), published from 1767 to 1769. The word is from the Greek dramatourgía, “a dramatic composition” or “action of a play.”
Lessing developed the theory and practice of a new German national theater, differentiating itself from the leading French plays of the time, being influenced by the plays of Shakespeares and the Aristotelian drama theory.
- Feb 1, 2009 5:58 am (#77 of 1043)
Was Friedrich Schiller a redhead?
It sure looks like it in those two portraits.
- Feb 1, 2009 5:59 am (#78 of 1043)
Lol! You beat me, Moulton.
I don't know, I'd have to research it.
Spiritually and mentally Schiller definitely strikes me as redhead.
- Feb 1, 2009 6:14 am (#79 of 1043)
A few years ago, I played host to Frank Thissen, a Professor of Media Arts at the University of Applied Sciences in Stuttgart and at the University of Karlsruhe, where his research project explores the role of emotions in learning. In his seminal book, The Screen Design Manual, he includes a chapter on Emotions. Although he does not use the term "dramaturgy" in that textbook, he and I have talked extensively about the role of dramaturgy in education. Indeed I acquired the term from him.
- Feb 1, 2009 6:30 am (#80 of 1043)
Frank Thissen's homepage, unfortunately most of it is in German:
http://www.multimedia-didaktik.de/
I like his clustermap of people visiting his website: 
- Feb 1, 2009 6:48 am (#81 of 1043)
Google's English Translation of Frank Thissen's web page.
Workshop » Virtual Learning with Stories — The Power of Storytelling « at LearnTec 2009
This workshop offers an intensive approach to story-based learning. The participants will review the contributions of experts and discuss their own personal experiences in small groups.
- Feb 1, 2009 6:56 am (#82 of 1043)
The workshop offers an intensive approach to the geschichtenbasierte learning.
Forget it, Moulton.
If the translation machine can't even translate "geschichtenbasiert" into story-based, it's hopeless.
- Feb 1, 2009 8:37 am (#83 of 1043)
No I didn't forget it, Moulton. But that was very shortlived i.e. not very functional, not a permanent stage for Bela to get mirrored. It died after sixteen posts. And shortly afterwards you left the location, if I remember correctly.
Bela Wins Again!
- Feb 1, 2009 8:40 am (#84 of 1043)
Bela defines winning as the avoidance of learning.
- Feb 1, 2009 8:43 am (#85 of 1043)
One of the unsolved problems in Game Theory is how to induce a paradigm shift from Games of Competition to Games of Cooperation.
Isn't it though?
While having a policy set out is a good thing, it is not required in order to make a decision regarding Moulton now. I think we should prefer a set of policies set out beforehand, but trying to lawyer around blocks because all the policies weren't in place first is absurd. Moulton was (1) fully aware that he was treading on thin ice due to his experiences on other Wikimedia projects and (2) warned multiple times on this site to stop the behavior. He has no excuse, and that's why he likes to argue based around process, rather than address his bad behavior...
I don't believe in doing due process solely for the sake of due process on a private website. Moulton likes to play lawyer games when told to knock off bad behavior and ultimately blocked, but the WV community is not obligated to indulge him in that pursuit. He can make all the histrionic bad analogies he wants, but this is not a court of law, nor is there any reason it has to be like one.
http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Wikiversity:Community_Review/Status_of_Moulton#Discussion
- Feb 1, 2009 8:47 am (#86 of 1043)
Actaully, I would rephrase it:
One of the unsolved problems in Game Theory is how to induce a paradigm shift in Moulton, from Games of Competition to Games of Cooperation
Tell us about learning, Moulton, and why you have been getting banned for vicious trollery from innumberable web sites for a full decade?
- Moulton's claim (which you are repeating) of using scholars' names when replying to them is a fabricated excuse, and obviously so. It is not applied in the evenhanded manner that would signal truly ethical behavior. Instead, he only uses it against those he feels wronged him in the past, and particularly in antagonistic ways. It's very clearly petty vengeance, and he's making up a crappy excuse after the fact, which you've bought into. I've brought this up with him, and he was ultimately unable to make any substantive answer to the holes in this supposed reasoning...
Unfortunately, while I would support giving Moulton the ability to reply to accusations, he has consistently abused the ability when it was given to him in the past at WV. Instead of responding to accusations, he questions the right of the person to make the accusation, questioned their judgment without actually saying what was wrong with it, or dodged it in other ways, thus attempting to lawyer his way out of it, rather than face the problem. He has worn out my rather large reserve of patience by playing games, in order to try and continue his vendetta, rather than address issues honestly.
http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Wikiversity:Community_Review/Status_of_Moulton#Discussion
- Feb 1, 2009 8:52 am (#87 of 1043)
This Wikipedian opposed the 'unblock' of Moulton on the following grounds.
Does this sound like Moultie is playing a game of cooperation, or competition? OR: Oppose User constantly outted me and used my personal name, attacked me, etc, while I kept trying to tell him that such behavior is inappropriate and needs to end before he can come back. He will not acknowledge that, which leads me to believe that he will not perform the necessary changes to handle being a member of this community again.
JWS: Can you explain what you mean by "outted me"? Do you support making the proposed privacy policy an official Wikiversity policy?
OR: My full name, my age, and my work was posted at Wikipedia Review by Moulton then spread about in a mass email to many people including users banned by ArbCom at Wikipedia-en.
http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Wikiversity:Community_Review/Status_of_Moulton#1._Unblock_and_restore_all_pages
klaatu - Feb 1, 2009 10:18 am (#88 of 1043)
Bela gives an upside-down and extremely selective view of what happened at Wiki. Bela selects the views of people who think and act like him. Some know him. Many of them have been tossed from Wiki for it but Bela won't mention that.
- Feb 1, 2009 10:24 am (#89 of 1043)
I assure you none of the people at Wiki 'know' me, however one of them quoted me (and others at WX) sometime way back, to demonstrate, I suppose that Mouldie has a pattern of egregious behavior.
klaatu - Feb 1, 2009 10:27 am (#90 of 1043)
The assurance is hollow and a good indication they know him. Slanderers quote each others' slander.
- Feb 1, 2009 10:55 am (#91 of 1043)
I assure you none of the people at Wiki 'know' me, however one of them quoted me (and others at WX) sometime way back, to demonstrate, I suppose that Mouldie has a pattern of egregious behavior.
It was FeloniousMonk, a high-level Admin, who quoted you, Bela.
He foolishly relied on material from you in a case before ArbCom.
ArbCom examined his practices, unanimously declared him to be a disgrace to the community, and stripped him of his Adminship.
One of the charges sustained against FeloniousMonk was "including meritless accusations against other editors on multiple occasions." Among those occasions which ArbCom reviewed was the occasion in which he included meritless accusations against me that he obtained from you.
I am grateful for your help, Bela, in getting FeloniousMonk convicted of egregious abuse of power.
And I appreciate that you are now helping focus attention on several other supporters of IDCab who are similarly corrupt.
- Feb 1, 2009 11:44 am (#92 of 1043)
If I recall, I was quoted along with at least three other posters.
I am grateful for your help, Bela, in getting FeloniousMonk convicted of egregious abuse of power.
And the WIki community is, no doubt, grateful for FeloniousMonk's help in getting you, Moulton, convicted of egregious abuse of power.
Bill Russell
- Feb 1, 2009 11:50 am (#93 of 1043)
Revised history.
- Feb 1, 2009 12:09 pm (#94 of 1043)
Set us straight, spammo, and provide a link.
Bill Russell
- Feb 1, 2009 12:11 pm (#95 of 1043)
Pot calls kettle black, spammo.
- Feb 1, 2009 12:14 pm (#96 of 1043)
Don't bother. You're an idiot.
However, Moulton has kindly squirreled away the relevant entries, I presume verbatim:
-----------
Responses of other online communities to Moulton
International Digest Forum: "More spam from the [Moulton's real name redacted by Bela] man -- another reason to have contempt for this formerly interesting place. All it is is a takedown -- all [Moulton's real name redacted by Bela] -- and his moron Bela -- all the time. What more can this place be besides [Moulton's real name redacted by Bela] harassing us in his unhappy retirement? "[247] "yes, you've been at it for over ten years, too. in fact, you're addicted to it."[248] "My present plan is to attempt to disengage. [Moulton's real name redacted by Bela] obviously reveling in the attention and I'm not willing to play his game. If he posts on topic I plan to respond but I will not participate in or comment publicly upon any inflammatory posts or actions. I did respond until it became evident that [Moulton's real name redacted by Bela] was not interested in learning anything or contributing anything other than the advancement of his own grievance and agenda. "[249]
Slashdot: Slashdot disabled Moulton's account on or about 6 April 2006 due to a sufficient number of his posts there being flagged by Slashdot users as "Troll" or "Flamebait." [250] Discussed here: "I agree with you that "the system works". It's not an AI that rated you as a troll, it was the readers of slashdot themselves. Real live intelligent human beings voted you off the island! Yes, the Slashdot moderation system works very well, doesn't it?"[251] "Here's how the system works: you told me yourself that your accound was disabled because of all the negative moderation points you got. Obviously it works the way it was designed. ... [Moulton's real name redacted by Bela], everybody agrees that you're a troll, and a flame baiter."[252]
Worldcrossings: "[Moulton's real name redacted by Bela], I agree with cduffy that you are a troll. AFTER I read his message, I googled your name, and came up with this post from Bela. I was already 100% sure that you were a troll, before I ever saw Bella's message, so I didn't get that idea from Bella -- he just confirmed what was obvious to me and cduffy and everyone who moderated your posts down so far that you got kicked off slashdot: you have only YOURSELF to blame!"[253] "How did [Moulton's real name redacted by Bela] blow it so badly? How many forums has he been banned from this year? ... You have been consistently self-promoting. It was only mid last year when you found yourself getting banned from a half dozen forums at WX" [254]
The Well: Moulton developed a reputation for disrupting the community by spending most of his time there trying to promote a notion he envisioned of how the community long after the community rejected his ideas, rather than using the community the way it was enjoyed by the rest of its membership. This pattern of behavior, rambling analysis forced on the community, is the same as that seen at Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Moulton, Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment/Moulton that prompted his indef block and seen here: [255]
http://newscafe.ansci.usu.edu/~[Moulton's real name redacted by Bela]/FeloniousMonk.Arbcom.Evidence.html
- Feb 1, 2009 12:22 pm (#97 of 1043)
LOL. The Well was one of the original online communities--and Moulton poisoned it!
- Feb 1, 2009 12:26 pm (#98 of 1043)
Notice how Paul Mitchell (FeloniousMonk) submitted to ArbCom meritless accusations scraped from Bela's postings in the Soap Opera Forum, and in doing so violates the very precept that he and his goons in IDCab later decided to use as a pretext to hang me — posting real names on-wiki linking a WP avatar name to a real name.
This kind of double standard is what just tripped up Krimpet, an otherwise good editor who similarly posted on-wiki pages linking real names to avatar names. When Alison pointed out that Krimpet was guilty of a double standard, she immediately resigned her Adminship, rather than put the community through the kind of trial that ArbCom had to go through to strip FeloniousMonk of considerably more egregious violations.
So far, three members of IDCab have done that, even as they later decided that was a sufficient pretext to go after me.
In fact it's quite a common practice. SB_Johnny even did it just last Tuesday.
klaatu - Feb 1, 2009 1:18 pm (#99 of 1043)
Bela is an unindicted co-conspirator.
- Feb 1, 2009 1:34 pm (#100 of 1043)
They say context is everything.
Or if they don't they should. I do, anyway.
It is easy to fabricate a lie by taking a snippet of truth and embedding it in a false context.
To wit:
Notice how Paul Mitchell (FeloniousMonk) submitted to ArbCom meritless accusations scraped from Bela's postings in the Soap Opera Forum
Notice how FeloniousMonk submitted to ArbCom numerous observations and eyewitness accounts gleaned from Bela's postings in the Soap Opera Forum... as well as those of numerous members of this forum, Utne/Brainstorms, The Well, and Slashdot.
Funny how, if my 'accusations' are 'meritless', they have been echoed across the web for over 10 years by people who have never met, let alone 'consulted' each other.
- Feb 1, 2009 1:38 pm (#101 of 1043)
Notice these comments, made before I was even on the internet:
- Feb 1, 2009 1:39 pm (#102 of 1043)
OK, Moulton, back to you.
Care to continue your lecture on harmonious dialogue, forum social contracts, and the benefits of cooperation vs. competition?
klaatu - Feb 1, 2009 1:46 pm (#103 of 1043)
All things Bela is ignorant of.
It is easy to fabricate a lie by taking a snippet of truth and embedding it in a false context.
That one of Bela's chief tactics. He has just demonstrated how it is done.
- Feb 1, 2009 1:58 pm (#104 of 1043)
Care to continue your lecture on harmonious dialogue, forum social contracts, and the benefits of cooperation vs. competition?
Try this item.
Bill Russell
- Feb 1, 2009 2:05 pm (#105 of 1043)
And the Bela beat goes on, and on, and on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
- Feb 1, 2009 2:09 pm (#106 of 1043)
For some people, the disembodied nature of online communication is an illusion and distraction. For others, the Net can be a lifeline. As learners, as workers, as humans, we are social creatures
Well... we are, Moulton.
How about you?
- Feb 1, 2009 2:11 pm (#107 of 1043)
I've been having fun with gmail videochat. An awesome technology, and free (if you have a webcam already).
Oh, that's right, Mouldie... you've offered to do streaming video chats on these forums, and nobody took you up on it for some reason.
Ha!
Bill Russell
- Feb 1, 2009 2:12 pm (#108 of 1043)
And the Bela beat goes on, and on, and on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ad nauseum.
- Feb 1, 2009 4:09 pm (#109 of 1043)
TV doc on Second Life, a role-playing video game/internet community, and the people who get addicted to it.
Kinda disturbing.
http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/2008-2009/strangers_in_paradise/video.html
Bill Russell
- Feb 1, 2009 4:16 pm (#110 of 1043)
Kinda disturbing:
A simulated fantasyland where the economy booms, the sun shines and everyone looks gorgeous, while lazily eating popcorn.
- Feb 1, 2009 4:43 pm (#111 of 1043)
If you looked gorgeous, it would have to be a fantasy.
Bill Russell
- Feb 1, 2009 4:49 pm (#112 of 1043)
This message not displayed because the author is on your Ignore list.
- Feb 1, 2009 6:15 pm (#113 of 1043)
Phelps acknowledges photo using pot pipe
By PAUL NEWBERRY, AP National Writer
59 mins ago 
Olympic great Michael Phelps acknowledged "regrettable" behavior and "bad judgment" after a photo in a British newspaper Sunday showed him inhaling from a marijuana pipe.
In a statement to The Associated Press, the swimmer who won a record eight gold medals at the Beijing Games did not dispute the authenticity of the exclusive picture published Sunday by the tabloid News of the World.
"I engaged in behavior which was regrettable and demonstrated bad judgment," Phelps said in the statement released by one of his agents. "I'm 23 years old and despite the successes I've had in the pool, I acted in a youthful and inappropriate way, not in a manner people have come to expect from me. For this, I am sorry. I promise my fans and the public it will not happen again." 
News of the World said the picture was taken during a November house party while Phelps was visiting the University of South Carolina. During that trip, he attended one of the school's football games and received a big ovation when introduced to the crowd.
While the newspaper did not specifically allege that Phelps was smoking pot, it did say the water pipe is generally used for that purpose and anonymously quoted a partygoer who said the Olympic champion was "out of control from the moment he got there."..
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090202/ap_on_sp_ot/swm_phelps_marijuana
original story: http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news/150832/14-times-Olympic-gold-medal-winner-Michael-Phelps-caught-with-bong-cannabis-pipe.html
Bill Russell
- Feb 1, 2009 7:03 pm (#114 of 1043)
This message not displayed because the author is on your Ignore list.
- Feb 2, 2009 12:29 am (#115 of 1043)
Played Uru the other day, a 3D sequal to Myst.
Moulton, you would like it, its full of nifty puzzles to solve and has an online community feature.
Bill Russell
- Feb 2, 2009 12:47 am (#116 of 1043)
This message not displayed because the author, Bela, is on the Ignore list.
- Feb 2, 2009 3:38 am (#117 of 1043)
I have a copy of Uru, but it requires a fast CPU and (more importantly) a high-end video card capable of performing real-time rendering in DirectX. None of my video cards have the requisite high-end DirectX rendering capabilities.
- Feb 2, 2009 3:54 am (#118 of 1043)
Edited Feb 2, 2009 11:14 am
The Final Absolution
Random832, scratching his head over a typical kerfuffle at Wikipedia Review, reviews the litany of failed ideas and asks: "Does anyone have any thoughts on what other solution may be possible?""Yes," I reply, "but my proposed solution is unacceptable to almost everyone in the WikiSphere, including almost everyone here at W-R."
My proposed solution — for members of the community to peaceably negotiate mutually agreeable terms of engagement — appears to be a thoroughly disagreeable notion to virtually everyone in this odd corner of the planet.
Those of you who saw Ron Howard's movie, A Beautiful Mind about John Forbes Nash, the autistic Game Theory genius who developed the Nash Equilibrium Solution for the Two-Person Zero-Sum Game of Competition, may recognize the complementary problem: the intractability of establishing a functional paradigm for an N-Person Positive-Sum Game of Cooperation in which everyone comes out ahead.
Those of you who know anything about The Prisoner's Dilemma would be familiar with this classic conundrum., which Dan Ariely has now greatly expanded upon in his brilliant research into Predictable Irrationality.
The generalized extension of Game Theory is Drama Theory, and the generalization of the Nash Equilibrium is known in the annals of Dramaturgy as Clancy's Theorem.
Drama revolves around conflict, and conflict swirls around emotions. The eventual outcome of an emotional experience is learning, but our species, Homo Schleppians, is notoriously sluggish when it comes to learning anything involving mind-boggling mathematical subtleties.
Umberto Eco says, "Whereof we cannot make a theory, we must tell a story instead." The odd thing about Game Theory and Drama Theory is that we do have insightful theories, but they are largely unknown to those who while away the hours mindlessly engaged in games and shreklisch dramas.
And so, the solution to that meta-conundrum is to convert the long-established (but little appreciated) theory into Our Story.
Alas, I suck at storycraft, so we're just gonna have to let this dreadful story unfold on its own.
Don't expect any efficient liminal social drama to yield Communitas any time soon. We know from sorrowful experience that we are in for protracted lunatic social drama till death do us part.
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
- Feb 2, 2009 5:55 am (#119 of 1043)
Cast not Fritz Perls before Swinburne.
Bill Russell
- Feb 2, 2009 11:32 am (#120 of 1043)
"Ron Howard's movie, A Brilliant Mind about John Forbes Nash"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Beautiful_Mind_(film)
- Feb 2, 2009 11:34 am (#121 of 1043)
One knew what he meant.
Bill Russell
- Feb 2, 2009 11:35 am (#122 of 1043)
Only one?
- Feb 2, 2009 11:36 am (#123 of 1043)
Hails of derisive laughter, Bruce.
Bill Russell
- Feb 2, 2009 11:37 am (#124 of 1043)
OK
- Feb 2, 2009 12:14 pm (#125 of 1043)
Thanks for finding that error. I've fixed it.
Heh Ha - Feb 2, 2009 3:22 pm (#126 of 1043)
I don't know why WOolworths in in the topic when it's not talked about much, but I remembered that you could get banana splits at the lunch counter and some weeks there would be hanging balloons. You got to pop one after you ordered a bananasplit and a slip of paper with the price your were supposed to pay fell out of of the popped balloon. That's what you paid for your banansplit. SOmetimes you could even get a bananasplit for free. The price was never more than it was on the menu.
- Feb 2, 2009 5:41 pm (#127 of 1043)
This is... well. You know.
My proposed solution — for members of the community to peaceably negotiate mutually agreeable terms of engagement — appears to be a thoroughly disagreeable notion to virtually everyone in this odd corner of the planet.
Does blackmailing people by 'outing' them conform to your idea of "peaceable negotiations"?
After all, that is your practice.
Is your ten years of forum conflict, trollery, blackmail and antagonization somehow supposed to induce people to join you in some Bohmian rhapsody?
Or are you justified, somehow, by the 'righteousness' of your cause?
So people should do what you say, and not what you do?
Drama revolves around conflict, and conflict swirls around emotions.
Conflict also swirls around Moulton/Barsoom Tork/Montana Mouse with stupefying regularity.
Ever notice that?
That the only common factor in all those ten years of 'vicious' internet flames wars... is... you?
- Feb 2, 2009 5:43 pm (#128 of 1043)
Hails of derisive laughter, Bruce.
Higs: one of my fave Pythonisms, I don't know why.
- Feb 2, 2009 6:25 pm (#129 of 1043)
Yeah. I find it much more satisfying than LOL.
Maybe we could launch HODLB. Do you think it would catch on?
- Feb 2, 2009 6:46 pm (#130 of 1043)
So what's wrong with lunatic social drama if that's what people want?
They elected it, they got. What's the problem?
- Feb 2, 2009 10:28 pm (#131 of 1043)
Maybe we could launch HODLB. Do you think it would catch on?
Heh. I definitely think it would be worth every effort. (it reminds me of yodeling which also lends itself to all kind of silliness. But that's German humor, the very existence of which is disputed in many quarters of the earth).
Loriot - Jodeldiplom. Yodel diploma.
The author of that sketch, Loriot, has been promoted living with a pug for half a century (he's now in his eighties), owning one pug after another all his life, saying memorably:
"Life without a pug is possible but not worth living."
Two minutes into the clip Loriot shows up as reporter interviewing one of the yodel students on her yodel classes and her upcoming yodel diploma.
- Feb 2, 2009 10:57 pm (#132 of 1043)
Loriot became famous as an illustrator in the 1960s and later also for his animated cartoons.
Loriot. The Talking Dog
Sorry, that cracks me up.
- Feb 3, 2009 1:26 am (#133 of 1043)
ON a more serious note:
Moulton, "The Woolworths School of Political Dramaturgy" #118, 2 Feb 2009 2:54 am
Thanks for that one, Moulton. I hope I won't forget to come back to it in more detail in the next days.
http://moultonlava.blogspot.com/search?q=intractability
And I really wish I had read caught that post of yours 1 1/2 years ago and had found the attention and time to respond to it.
But more to the point, I've also been told that my verbal communication content is often too dense, too complex, and too fast-paced for most people to follow in real time.
I think real time is a terribly overrated concept anyway.
Asynchronicity is the way to go. Or to put it differently as far as 99.9% of forum communication goes: I'd rather have a dialogue with Plato.
But I'm neglecting my daughter again. Catch you later.
- Feb 3, 2009 1:54 am (#134 of 1043)
On a more serious note, what is your view on enabling anonymous writers, hiding behind an untraceable pseudonym (perhaps even employing a sizable sock farm) to publish false and defamatory allegations about identifiable persons, unsupported by a shred of evidence, analysis, or reasoning, and forever evading accountability for their harmful and defamatory postings?
- Feb 3, 2009 1:25 pm (#135 of 1043)
On a more serious note, what is your view on enabling anonymous writers, hiding behind an untraceable pseudonym
I love the fact that the above is in a post by "Moulton" addressed to "ArchosIDF".
klaatu - Feb 3, 2009 2:09 pm (#136 of 1043)
It's about you and you know that.
- Feb 3, 2009 2:20 pm (#137 of 1043)
It's not wise to assume (let alone assert) what a self-deluded individual knows.
- Feb 3, 2009 2:25 pm (#138 of 1043)
I must say, this was striking: Moulton, "The Woolworths School of Political Dramaturgy" #134, 3 Feb 2009 12:54 am
Not only because it is from one psued to another, but also for the darkly ominous tone, mixed with the writer's history of 'outing' people, and huge dollop of... hypocrisy, there is no other word to describe it.
Let's see:
what is your view on enabling anonymous writers
What does this mean? "Enabling".
You mean, in the manner Archos has been "enabling" Moulton?
hiding behind an untraceable pseudonym
Why does a poster's pseudonymity matter to Moulton?
Doesn't matter to anyone else that I know. Doesn't matter to me.
Why would he want to know a person's 'real' identity?
Could it be Moulton wants to have the option to "out" people, or somehow hurt them in real life?
- Feb 3, 2009 2:25 pm (#139 of 1043)
He continues:
to publish false and defamatory allegations about identifiable persons, unsupported by a shred of evidence, analysis, or reasoning, and forever evading accountability for their harmful and defamatory postings?
Ahhh, and here is the 'accountability' issue.
Who would hold such people accountable, and upon what authority? What actions would they take?
For what purpose?
Also, is something 'defamatory' if it is true, demonstrably true?
Now, when I first read it, Moulton, I thought you might be referring to me, since you have made similar complaints, for years, about my 'anonymity'. For years this seems to have bothered you.
However, upon reading further, I could tell this post was about someone else. Why?
You say:
what is your view on enabling anonymous writers, hiding behind an untraceable pseudonym (perhaps even employing a sizable sock farm
I don't employ a "sizable sock farm"; in fact, you, Moulton, are the in the sockpuppet business more than any other poster at WX.
So, the post is clearly not about me.
to publish false and defamatory allegations about identifiable persons
Again, not about me, as I have not made any "false and defamatory allegations" about you.
All my observations are exhaustively supported with original quotes or eyewitness accounts.
Also, I have taken great care to remove your real name from any citations I post, even if you yourself had left your 'real name' in them.
unsupported by a shred of evidence, analysis, or reasoning
Again, this is not about me, as I post a great deal of evidence--careful citations, with links. In fact am often criticized for overdoing it.
It is noteworthy that 99% of the cites I post are from links Moulton himself provided at these forums.
So clearly that part is addressed to someone else.
Analysis and reasoning?
I think Moulton is uncomfortable at the wicked accuracy and unassailable depth of my reasoning. Otherwise, it could be more easily shrugged off.
But it resonates at 'truth'; the model describes the pattern too well, and hence is not easily discounted.
So, clearly, Moulton is talking about some other poor chump.
But who?
- Feb 3, 2009 2:25 pm (#140 of 1043)
After much thinking, I've deduced the culprit Moulton is complaining about can be only one person:
.
.
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Higs!
- Feb 3, 2009 2:28 pm (#141 of 1043)
Once upon a time there was a Greek drama about two characters named Achilles and Hector.
Achilles eventually defeated Hector and did unspeakable things with his dead body.
The end.
- Feb 3, 2009 2:43 pm (#142 of 1043)
Actually, the Gods protected Hector's body from harm.
Now, I suggest you look elsewhere for a scapegoat for your problems.
- Feb 3, 2009 2:49 pm (#143 of 1043)
Bela, "The Woolworths School of Political Dramaturgy" #140, 3 Feb 2009 1:25 pm
Bela, I don’t even know what a “sock farm” is.
- Feb 3, 2009 3:53 pm (#144 of 1043)
As I understand it, a 'sock farm' refers to a person with numerous 'sock puppets', ie psueds.
As you know, these psueds are often used to simulate agreement and support with one's own issues.
Basically, they are shills.
Of course, they can be used to sow confusion, create discord, or merely be used to evade banning/moderation.
Moulton has used more of them than anyone else I know, and he has used them for all of the above purposes (but mostly to simulate agreement, and to evade bannings).
Among his sock puppets are:
Gastrin Bombesin/Moulton/Barsoom Tork/Montana Mouse/Supina Swoonworthy/Caprice the Flying Goat/Hobbes Goblin/Sukeys Demon/ etc.
He's used at least a dozen. And he's admitted to it.
Which is why he is criticizing others (and their imaginary motes) for his own compulsive practice (the logs in his eye).
- Feb 3, 2009 3:54 pm (#145 of 1043)
But you knew that, didn't you.
Sock puppet.
Bill Russell
- Feb 3, 2009 4:52 pm (#146 of 1043)
Bela is on my Ignore list.
klaatu - Feb 3, 2009 5:24 pm (#147 of 1043)
Higs, Bela is insisting in RI that this post of Moulton's refers to you.
- On a more serious note, what is your view on enabling anonymous writers, hiding behind an untraceable pseudonym (perhaps even employing a sizable sock farm) to publish false and defamatory allegations about identifiable persons, unsupported by a shred of evidence, analysis, or reasoning, and forever evading accountability for their harmful and defamatory postings?
- Feb 3, 2009 5:36 pm (#148 of 1043)
Bela is entitled to his flights of fancy and delusional beliefs, unsupported by a shred of evidence, cogent analysis, or scientific evidence-based reasoning.
That's his trademark modus operandi.
- Feb 3, 2009 5:46 pm (#149 of 1043)
Its true, you know, I'm busting on Higs over there:
Bela - Feb 3, 2009 10:11 pm (#1265 of 1270)
- Feb 3, 2009 5:52 pm (#150 of 1043)
Bela is entitled to his flights of fancy and delusional beliefs, unsupported by a shred of evidence, cogent analysis, or scientific evidence-based reasoning.
Well thank you, Moulton, for giving me permission.
I guess you are in a bit of a bind, Moulton; for you to excoriate anybody-- for flights of fancy and delusional beliefs unsupported by a shred of evidence, cogent analysis, or scientific evidence-based reasoning--would leave you open to to having ten solid years of your own vicious forum trollery, outright lies, stalking, attempts at intimidation, sockpuppetry, disinformation, and maudlin self-pity thrown in your fucking face.
- Feb 3, 2009 5:53 pm (#151 of 1043)
There is one way to lessen that risk, of course:
Apologize for being such a dishonest, disruptive asshole, for stalking people, lying about them, and peddling your annoying psuedo-science that everyone knows that even you don't bother trying to employ.
And then, of course, either 1) start practicing what you preach, or 2) stop with the annoying preaching, and just admit you like starting fights on the internet.
I mean, after 10 years of habitual misbehavior, even most alcoholics can look in the mirror and admit they have a problem.
- Feb 3, 2009 5:57 pm (#152 of 1043)
Can I quote you on that remarkable diatribe, Bela, and attribute it to an anonymous coward hiding behind an untraceable pseudonym by means of which he hopes to forever evade accountability or otherwise bring any embarrassment or discredit to the School of Aesclepion Healing of which he is a proud and distinguished graduate?
- Feb 3, 2009 6:34 pm (#153 of 1043)
Can I quote you on that remarkable diatribe, Bela,
Quote me, go ahead.
Don't forget to link to it!
I stand by my words, and as you know, can back them up.
- Feb 3, 2009 6:34 pm (#154 of 1043)
and attribute it to an anonymous coward hiding behind an untraceable pseudonym
Huh. Interesting fixation you have there.
I'm sure "ArchosIDF", "Klatu", "Artemis", "Higs", and many others share your fixation.
Or do they?
Perhaps they will all agree to simultaneously publish their real names along with you, in a grand, unified gesture in support of whatever point you are making.
What are the odds of that, do you think?
- Feb 3, 2009 6:41 pm (#155 of 1043)
by means of which he hopes to forever evade accountability
Now that is interesting, whatever do you mean by it?
"Accountability".
Have you ever taken accountability for your misbehaviors?
The lies, the vicious, hostile attacks, the game playing, the stalking?
Ten years of abuse, dishonesty, and creepiness?
-------
How about the time you told that lady her brother committed suicide because you thought she was overbearing and so it had to be her fault?
Did you ever think of apologizing to her?
- Feb 3, 2009 6:54 pm (#156 of 1043)
GlassBeadGame writes:
There are legitimate reasons to collect and catalog information on IRL identities to hold people responsible (BLP authorship, POV pushing on Wikipedia, exercising admin responsibilities on a socially irresponsible site.)*
He's just one of many who advocates accountability by WP admins who are supervising the editorial process of crafting an encyclopedia.
* Key to acronyms:
IRL: In Real Life
BLP: Biographies of Living People
POV Pushing: Biased Writing to Push a Point of View.
- Feb 3, 2009 7:15 pm (#157 of 1043)
Moulton, "The Woolworths School of Political Dramaturgy" #152, 3 Feb 2009 4:57 pm...or otherwise bring any embarrassment or discredit to the School of Aesclepion Healing of which he is a proud and distinguished graduate?
They have nothing to do with my forum behavior, but I certainly can't stop you, if you want to pop them an email or give them a call.
Their number is on their web site.
- Feb 3, 2009 7:17 pm (#158 of 1043)
OK, so this AssBeads person, was she just referring to Wikipedia, or the web in general?
Do you have a link, so that any interested parties can look at the context of her remark?
And what, by the way are the consequences here--in other words, what does it mean to 'hold them responsible'?
I know you don't want to answer, seeing as how you just ducked the question for the 50th time.
- Feb 3, 2009 7:24 pm (#159 of 1043)
Of course the School of Aesclepion Healing has everything to do with your behavior, Bela. They trained you in the arts that you brought to life in these forums, notably in the Mind Body & Spirit Forum, where you introduced yourself as a proud and distinguished graduate of their program, which you then proceeded to explain and demonstrate in great detail here, over many years.
There can be no better advertisement for the School of Aesclepion Healing of San Rafael, as you are their best known graduate, evangelist, and promoter on the Internet.
You are the poster child for what they are able to contribute to the advancement and practice of the spiritual healing arts.
klaatu - Feb 3, 2009 7:33 pm (#160 of 1043)
The real wonder will be when Bela sincerely apologizes for his misbehavior, the lies, the vicious hostile attacks, the game playing, the stalking, slander, ten years of abuse, dishonesty, and creepiness?
Bela foolishly thinks that if he can project his failures onto others he will gain redemption.
- Feb 3, 2009 7:46 pm (#161 of 1043)
Bela has nothing to apologize for. He came here to demonstrate what he learned at the Aesclepion Healing Center, and his achievements here stand as a monument to what a gifted spiritual healer can accomplish when he puts his mind to it.
I am sure the School of Aesclepion Healing is right proud of their most famous and successful graduate.
Bill Russell
- Feb 3, 2009 8:08 pm (#162 of 1043)
Karma lives.
- Feb 3, 2009 8:16 pm (#163 of 1043)
Karma lives.
Oh it's even better than that.
One of Bela's friends in San Francisco is Paul Mitchell, an IT Specialist at Macy's San Francisco Operations Center. Mitchell is known as FeloniousMonk on Wikipedia where, until recently, he was one of the most powerful admins on the site.
FeloniousMonk came to WX to scrape some material that Bela and Don Hopkins (another Bay Area personality) had posted here. Monk submitted Bela's testimony to Wikipedia's Arbitration Committee, who took one look at it and decided that Monk lacked the kind of editorial rigor that is required of an educational enterprise undertaking to craft an encyclopedia. ArbCom unanimously declared Monk to be mean-spirited, inept, and just plain corrupt, and stripped him of all responsibility. That was truly a remarkable achievement, and it could not have happened without Bela's instrumental participation and help in spreading defamatory falsehoods.
- Feb 3, 2009 8:26 pm (#164 of 1043)
One of Bela's friends in San Francisco is Paul Mitchell, an IT Specialist at Macy's San Francisco Operations Center. Mitchell is known as FeloniousMonk on Wikipedia where, until recently, he was one of the most powerful admins on the site.
Nice. We were just talking about how you stalk people, and collect personal information on them with the intent to intimidate them.
Of course, I've never met this "Paul Mitchell" character. Certainly not a 'friend' of mine.
But go ahead, make your unsubstantiated allegations... its what you do, isn't it, Moulton?
- Feb 3, 2009 8:26 pm (#165 of 1043)
Moulton, "The Woolworths School of Political Dramaturgy" #159, 3 Feb 2009 6:24 pmOf course the School of Aesclepion Healing has everything to do with your behavior, Bela. They trained you in the arts that you brought to life in these forums
No, I take responsibility for my own actions.
You should try it sometime!
Its odd, taking responsibility is liberating. Maybe you will explore that notion someday!
- Feb 3, 2009 8:26 pm (#166 of 1043)
There can be no better advertisement for the School of Aesclepion Healing of San Rafael, as you are their best known graduate, evangelist, and promoter on the Internet.
Did you say it was an advertisement for the School of Aesclepion Healing of San Rafael?
No, not by a long shot.
This is in no way an advertisement for the School of Aesclepion Healing of San Rafael. Why do you think it is an advertisement for the School of Aesclepion Healing of San Rafael?
You are the poster child for what they are able to contribute to the advancement and practice of the spiritual healing arts.
Heh. Is this the equivalent of 'your mother wears army boots'?
Ha ha ha ha!
- Feb 3, 2009 8:36 pm (#167 of 1043)
You collaborated with Don Hopkins on the Soap Opera Forum and provided there the material that FeloniousMonk scraped from the site to submit to ArbCom. He relied on your testimony, Bela. He trusted you.
He would not have relied on you if he did not trust you. FeloniousMonk trusts his friends and mistrusts those who are critical of him. I am one of his critics, and you are one of his allied defenders. You also defended another of Monk's closest affiliates, Blogger Skip (aka Odd Nature, aka Centaur of Attention), whom Paul Mitchell had hired to work with him at Macy's.
Face it, Bela, you are allied to Monk and his allied editors from IDCab. You cooperated and collaborated with them, sang their praises, and vigorously defended them against my scathing criticism of their unethical practices.
Bill Russell
- Feb 3, 2009 8:40 pm (#168 of 1043)
To change your Ignore list go to Preferences.
klaatu - Feb 3, 2009 10:22 pm (#169 of 1043)
Bela: I've never met this "Paul Mitchell" character. Certainly not a 'friend' of mine.
I don't believe it. It is obvious that Bela is involved in many kinds of back channel machinations that he never admits to.
- Feb 4, 2009 1:24 am (#170 of 1043)
Ah, Moulton, you sad little man.
Moulton, "The Woolworths School of Political Dramaturgy" #167, 3 Feb 2009 7:36 pm
You collaborated with Don Hopkins on the Soap Opera Forum and provided there the material that FeloniousMonk scraped from the site
"Colloborated"...
This Hopkins fellow posted with you at Slashdot, correct? And like so many others, found you to be a troll. So he Googled and found some old posts of mine that corroborated his opinion of you.
Isn't Slashdot yet another one of those forums you were banned from?
And this Monk fellow... he, also, Googled and found some old, pre-existing posts of mine (and others at WX, and others at Slashdot, and others at The Well...) that likewise confirmed his opinion of you: that you are a self-rightous, thuggish troll and have been for years.
I "provided" him with nothing; rather he simply found some posts of mine that confirmed his take on you.
He relied on your testimony, Bela. He trusted you.
The degree to which he 'trusted' me is the degree to which he, like so many others, found that I spoke the truth of you; that I have been able to formulate an accurate model of you and your deceitful behavior.
"Collaborated"... "provided"... you are a dishonest man, Moulton. A sad, dishonest man.
- Feb 4, 2009 1:27 am (#171 of 1043)
Face it, Bela, you are allied to Monk and his allied editors from IDCab.
I don't even know what "IDCab" is.
You cooperated and collaborated with them, sang their praises, and vigorously defended them against my scathing criticism of their unethical practices.
You are the unethical one, Moulton.
I didn't "cooperate" or "collaborate" with any of them.
No; you are trying to sell a fiction to exonerate yourself.
If the Truth was on your side, you'd use it; but it isn't, so you spin lies. So now you are grasping at straws, and throwing mud, because the Truth is not kind to you, is it?
The Truth has no use for you, so you have no use for the truth.
What a sad, empty little life you must have.
- Feb 4, 2009 1:28 am (#172 of 1043)
You cooperated and collaborated with them, sang their praises, and vigorously defended them against my scathing criticism of their unethical practices.
I did not "cooperate" or "collaborate" with any of them, because I did not even know about their existence until after you had been blocked from Wiki.
Rather, they found some old, pre-existing posts of mine (and of several others) that had independently arrived at the same conclusion that they did: that you are a dishonest old troll.
Doesn't it hurt you--doesn't it sting-- that all these different people, on all these different forums, over the last ten years, have independently arrived at the same conclusion about you?
- Feb 4, 2009 6:46 am (#173 of 1043)
Mimetic Nihilism
Random832 writes:
What we really need is ranked order of preference voting, like the WMF board election (not necessarily counted in that way - I've heard good things about Condorcet).
The Condorcet Paradox was the first one studied in the annals of voting paradoxes. Kenneth Arrow won the Nobel Prize in Economics for his analysis of such voting paradoxes. Arrow's Impossibility Theorem established with astonishing mathematical rigor that no voting system (including Condorcet Voting) could exist without violating at least one of five desiderata, none of which is dispensable without causing a destructive schism in the community.
The worst case (trivially revealed by the initial Condorcet Voting Paradox) yields a circular deadlock which (if negative campaign ads are allowed) gives rise to a circular firing squad in which the entire system becomes a self-defeating joke.
While it is not an inevitability, there is a folk theorem to the effect that any dysfunctional system eventually arrives at a set of candidates or voting options that manifests the pathology of the Condorcet Paradox. The resulting lulz provides great amusement to observers outside the system.
The WikiSphere is now in the throes of "Mimetic Nihilism" — a kind of lunatic psychodrama that has long been predicted for jejune political cultures like Wikipedia.
The single most essential ingredient to ensure the emergence of lunatic scapegoat psychodrama is the express vetoing of the concept of mutually agreeable terms of engagement. What that veto means is that the parties reject the notion of a peace treaty in favor of endless political dramaturgy.
- Feb 4, 2009 6:49 am (#174 of 1043)
Mimetic Nihilism for Dummies
Circular Firing Squad - People involved in an idea or policy that is obviously self-defeating to everyone else but them. Used to described some group that is so clueless that one could show them a diesel engine and ask them to find the spark plugs. See also Numpty.
Numpty - Someone who (sometimes unwittingly) by speech or action demonstrates a lack of knowledge or misconception of a particular subject or situation to the amusement of others. A reckless, absent minded or unwise person. A person who never has or never will have a fucking clue what he is doing. An idiot, a silly person. A person so stupid they are incapable of understanding the simplest of things. See also Circular Firing Squad.
- Feb 4, 2009 7:59 am (#175 of 1043)
klaatu, "The Woolworths School of Political Dramaturgy" #147, 3 Feb 2009 4:24 pm
Am I supposed to care about that?
I am indifferent to the personal enmities that seem to be the only things sustaining this forum. I realized as soon as I poked my nose into RI that it was not a place I wanted anything to do with. How they talk about me after I’m dead is of little interest to me.
klaatu - Feb 4, 2009 9:19 am (#176 of 1043)
You evidently do a little. It's only natural. And you have to consider the source of RI's character, which you did.
- Feb 4, 2009 9:57 am (#177 of 1043)
And you have to consider the source of those emnities, which you did.
Why? Did I?
I’m not sure what you mean, really, Klaatu.
It’s natural to dislike the idea of being slandered, yes. But I’ve wandered, on and off, through places like this long enough to know that sort of thing sometimes goes on. It’s a waste of time even to think about it, in my view.
As soon as I saw what was going to go down over there, I left. What happens after that has nothing to do with me. That’s how I see it. As I have occasionally been moved to say about this sort of thing over the years, There are some really sick puppies out there.
But unless I’m getting paid to fool with them—I don’t care to.
klaatu - Feb 4, 2009 10:43 am (#178 of 1043)
I mean almost what you mean.
Bill Russell
- Feb 4, 2009 2:21 pm (#179 of 1043)
"There are some really sick puppies out there."
How could you tell?
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The Woolworths School of Political Dramaturgy